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Why decentralization doesn't work for forums
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Fair enough if that's what you would like. But for the rest of us, yes we're looking for a seamless anti-echo chamber experience, the mirror opposite of Reddit.
But for the rest of us,
No one here agrees with you,
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That's my whole argument, if Lemmy is going to be naturally fragmented and require a new account for every defederated instance, why not just use regular forums at that point?
You don't need an account for every defederated instance. The network is still one and whole. Defederation only hides the two instances' activities from each other's users, but you can use piefed.zip that doesn't defederate from basically anything.
You will see all content defederated from lemmyworld and you will also see all content from lemmyworld.
If you use piefed.zip, you will get precisely the result you are describing you want. You will have all the Forumverse content behind one login, seamlessly.
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Also, is there any centralized forum that is more active than the Threadiverse (Lemmy/Piefed/Pylova/Mbin)?
It looks like there are on the order of maybe 20-30k total monthly active users of the threadiverse, though I had to cobble this together from a few sources, so if you have any solid numbers I’d love to see them.
As much drama as there is/was, the Something Awful Forums are a Web 1.0 old school centralized forum which has been around for over a quarter of a century and is still going. At their peak they had hundreds of thousands of users.
Looks like the Threadiverse is ~45k. So, relatively stable and up year-over-year. Peak would have been 2023-07-17 at 76585 MAU (Lemmy + Mbin/Kbin; during the Reddit 3rd party exodus?).
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Fair enough if that's what you would like. But for the rest of us, yes we're looking for a seamless anti-echo chamber experience, the mirror opposite of Reddit.
Looks like that’s not really true seeing how you are calling people, who are not in your echo chamber of “defederation breaks the experience”, morons.
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Also, is there any centralized forum that is more active than the Threadiverse (Lemmy/Piefed/Pylova/Mbin)?
I can only think of Lobste.rs and Tildes.
I have a look at Tildes from time to time, it's definitely less active than here. Same for discuit.org which has been stable at 200 weekly active users for quite a while.
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You are a moron, sorry.
I was following you up to this point, and somewhat agreeing, to a certain extent. You lost me with the name calling.
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That's my whole argument, if Lemmy is going to be naturally fragmented and require a new account for every defederated instance, why not just use regular forums at that point?
This one is easy, because regular forums are even more fragmented. Are you really one of those "all or nothing" people?
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I've come to the conclusion that @parallelminds@lemmy.world assumes a defedation splits the network into two islands completely isolated from each other. They don't seem ti understand that a defederation only affects the two instances themselves, nothing else.
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I have offered counter arguments, insults shouldn't matter. My reply was not a baseless insult, and I actually replied and counter argued. The person I replied to just put a baseless claim and you expect us to just accept it?
Rules of this community:
Be respectful to others
You might want to do some reading next time before you spout off. Next time is a perma.
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I am not a troll, I have put my money where my mouth is and hosted my own forum nightash.net, of which I crossposted the article here.
You’re treating federation like it creates fresh users, but it doesn’t. It lets existing users move between communities; it doesn’t guarantee new people will find or join them. Centralized forums can have user turnover too, through visibility and a larger audience.
And the aquarium analogy cuts both ways: if defederation closes the flow between communities, then the ‘oxygen’ isn’t reaching everyone anyway. Calling it a last resort doesn’t change that users on either side can lose access to each other, or that they can’t take their account with them. That’s still fragmentation, just with a nicer plumbing metaphor
Defederation would be more akin to a country cutting ties with another in international relationships, when this other country keeps causing trouble, or when making concessions for its problems makes the problems spill over or the bureaucratic cost to become too high. There's still, in this analogy, another 200-ish countries to have relationships with.
In the oxygenating analogy, instead of just one waterwheel, oxygen-blowing tube, small waterfall, or the sort, it's multiple ones. And if one source starts pumping CO2, motor oil, sucking up liquid instead of giving oxygen/oxygenated air to the aquarium, or whatever, this source can be cut without stopping the oxygenating.
And the nature of the protocol and the services that use it also allow people to come over from elsewhere. What I meant, far from "creating users", is to open venues which people can find the platforms of the network, and for the people already in the network to have access to places otherwise barren, and that by interacting with, they can bump into relevance.
On linking externally, from my experience, it's not uncommon for example in places like Pixiv for creators to link their socials, fediverse ones like Mastodon and Misskey included. You can also connect to other protocols such as Bluesky through bridges. Commercial projects such as Threads and Wordpress also have optional ActivityPub integration which would allow more people to join in or at least be aware of. And the services using the protocol are also niche-based but rarely alienating their userbases regarding other places in the network.
And on bigger forums having a larger audience, they usually do so by being so big they cannibalize competition (even if potentially not intentionally) while keeping their userbases in a walled garden. But when alternatives die out, and what's left enshittify, people have nowhere to run. But when Reddit started going from bad to worse, a lot of people found here as an alternative. Similarly, Twitter's at least kinda shitty since always, and very few altenatives stuck around, Mastodon being one of them.
And from what I can notice, the centralizing platforms, even the bigger ones, are either shrinking (e.g. Reddit), already shrunk (e.g. Facebook), or show indications that they may be shrinking (e.g. Discord allowing search engine indexing, and Meta allowing to sign up on Threads with their other services). And places that stay strong despite being centralizing usually offer more than just the forum experience or adjacents.
But once more, unless I've missed it, defederation is very sporadic. And when used, it is usually done so to keep the instance healthy within their culture.
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Also, is there any centralized forum that is more active than the Threadiverse (Lemmy/Piefed/Pylova/Mbin)?
It looks like there are on the order of maybe 20-30k total monthly active users of the threadiverse, though I had to cobble this together from a few sources, so if you have any solid numbers I’d love to see them.
As much drama as there is/was, the Something Awful Forums are a Web 1.0 old school centralized forum which has been around for over a quarter of a century and is still going. At their peak they had hundreds of thousands of users.
In the current world where most of the forum discussion happen on Reddit, there is little space left for another active centralized forum.
The decentralized approach has at least the pro to offer something different (you can leave for another instance instead of depending on a single corporation for access).
Creating another centralize Reddit brings exactly the same issues current Reddit has (enshittification), and you don't even have the userbase to make up for it. Digg 2.0 launch was messed up, but even if they managed better it would be very difficult for them to get enough traction to really compete.
Bluesky is better that Twitter in a lot of aspect, but it stills fails to replace it, and the network effect keep bringing people back to Twitter to see "what is happening".
Vicinus replied in the other comment for numbers.
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I have a look at Tildes from time to time, it's definitely less active than here. Same for discuit.org which has been stable at 200 weekly active users for quite a while.
Frankly Tildes was my favorite until I got banned. Which seems to be a trend for many Tildes users. You got to learn to love the fascist bomb or kick it.
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People overall want to have a single website or app where they can access everything interesting to them.
Like, I remember being a teenager 15 years ago and regularly clicking through three, four, five different forums. I don't have time for that anymore. The Lemmy concept allows us to have the best of both worlds: no single point of failure, but also no need to remember to click through many different websites.
Similarly, I don't have the time from my teenager years anymore. But still wanting to keep tabs with other places, if they have RSS feeds, I can at least get them to appear in my feed here, and then jump over to comment/react. Best of both worlds indeed.
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"I want to see everything" means that I want to see even the places that in theory I have no business being in.
It looks like the technology behind this forum is not well-understood by you.
If you create an account on http://piefed.zip , you will see practically all of Fediverse, basically regardless of defederations. You have to go the settings there and specifically click some buttons to unblock a group of instances most people don't want to see. But it can be done and you'll get what you're looking for.
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You are a moron, sorry.
No need to open a comment with an offense btw.
But in the type of participants, federation allows that a la carte. Within what each instance's willing to handle, you can find anything from commies to journalists to weebs to reviewers to MAGA folk to porn artists to IT technicians to pirates to whatever else. The list can go quite far from what I've observed in the ~4 years I've been around.
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Because I want to see everything, including lemmy.world.
If centralized but well moderated forums are what matter, paraphrasing the end of the opening post, wouldn't it be better to leave Lemmy / the fediverse though? (fediverse's not well moderated though? Doesn't seem so...)
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"I want to see everything" means that I want to see even the places that in theory I have no business being in.
If you want to see everything, world might not be the best place. If you click on blocked there, you see all the instances that are blocked by lemmy.world.
There are instances that don't, or barely, block any instances. That's where you are most likely to find "everything"
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Uhm, have you seen the amount of Spam, Phishing, Hacking, no replies we get on E-Mail?!? How is that working properly? It even cancels my attachments etc. And admins have to put in a massive amount of effort. Instant messenging isn't great either. Neither is Facebook, X, TikTok and all the other central for-profit social media platforms?!!
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Fair enough if that's what you would like. But for the rest of us, yes we're looking for a seamless anti-echo chamber experience, the mirror opposite of Reddit.
Centralizing platforms aren't necessarily seamless either. Having the same general contents propagating around, but different sites to seeing them, allows for creating the ideal experience to a given user, and each user expecting different things for an ideal experience.
Like in my case, I'm in Mbin, which would look like the least feature-complete of the fediverse softwares at first glance. But besides actually having what it takes to make a functional forum, it can bring together microblog and thread posts, and the lack of visual noise in the UI while the UI also being overall text-oriented help me focus. Plus it's very responsive to scripts when a feature isn't natively available. And I can connect to other sites thanks to RSS-tracking and protocol-bridging bots.
And from it, jumping to other forums such Twitter, Retropie and GOG's becomes seamless too.
For me, that is an example seamlessness.
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Nah.
For starters, who will pay for the hosting and bandwidth of a monolithic Reddit knockoff? How do we prevent it from becoming another shitplug of capitalism? (We don't, it goes exactly the way every other profit-seeking platform has gone)
And, MOST importantly: content moderation is impossible at scale; every Instance operator takes as many users as they can afford, in time and effort as well as money. The operators of monolithic sites end up doing things like hiring people in Africa and making them look at CSAM posts all day, so we don't have to.
No, giant scale is bad. It was always bad. I have been here since 1992, you are really peddling terrible and ignorant ideas here.
Ciao! Sembra che tu sia interessato a questa conversazione, ma non hai ancora un account.
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