The schadenfreude and gloating in the #fediverse about the #bluesky outage is indicative of the infantile tribalism that prevails around here.

The schadenfreude and gloating in the #fediverse about the #bluesky outage is indicative of the infantile tribalism that prevails around here. It's pathetic because it indicates a lack of appreciation of the enormity of the challenge of defeating #surveillancecapitalism. In that totally uneven fight, fundamental ideas such as those embedded in #atproto and #activitypub protocols (and maybe others not yet gifted with a hashtag) must be explored as fast as possible and as deeply as possible.

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The argument about limited #decentralization in the atproto universe is entirely valid. The folks behind #eurosky try to raise money through donations to take it to the next level. We need to see things play out.

The real question is: what end state wins over bigtech? Decentralization does not mean everybody #selfhosting every possible service. While standing up the atproto machinery is more expensive, its another weapon, there could be thousands of orgs and communities that can do it.

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@openrisk it might be that for a lot of people what BlueSky represents is capitalists cosplaying at open protocols and open networks.

They're maybe another weapon, but one that will shoot us in the foot just as soon as their crypto investors demand it.

@mariusor its an open protocol. People can try it and ditch it if it doesnt serve the core objective. Remember the internet protocol itself originated in US military circles.

The dependence on how things originated *is* important (e.g., atproto does make different tradeoffs than activitypub) but this influence dilutes if other communities fund further evolution, different applications etc.

@mariusor the areas where the bluesky team have spent a lot of time (and funding) is mostly around the "scale" problem. Social network protocols that can (theoretically) serve massive numbers of people. They made some choices in this regard and there are counter-opinions - but hardly a consensus. NB: The fediverse has not solved the scaling problem either. I don't belong to the group of people that says its ok if it never grows larger, if billions of people remain trapped in surveillance adtech.

@openrisk I don't feel like you added any counterpoints to my arguments.

I was trying to say that when profit is involved the incentives of the social media institution are antithetical to the ones of its users. "Scale" is something that a true open network does not need to the same extent as a centralized one does. Open and federated network nodes care little about the number of users they have individually because they can be explored in aggregate.

I don't think BlueSky has, or will have, a business model in which they can sustain themselves without taking advantage of their users, either through ads, selling their data, or other capitalist methods.

@openrisk that's why my knee jerk reaction against any company that touts itself as open and federated, but it's still profit driven, is reservation and mistrust.

@openrisk btw, that also includes Mastodon GmbH.

@mariusor I am trying to say that business models and profits may, or may, not have something to do with fundamental technical choices. There is nothing preventing a large non-profit entity to setup such infrastructure. This has been discussed here some time ago, from memory it would take Wikipedia level funding. Ok, what's so impossible about that.

Anyways, been around the fediverse since 2014. It's stagnating while the cancer expands. I don't think much of purist ideology that doesn't deliver

> I don't think much of purist ideology that doesn't deliver

@openrisk I'm doing my best, my dude, I'm doing my best... And so are many others.

@mariusor I'm curious to learn the problems you see with Mastodon GmbH. I hope I can help clarify. @openrisk